How did they get away with it? Two books describing outrageous crimes against innocence. Anne Manne’s Crimes of the Cross provides a detailed account of priests in the Anglican Diocese of Newcastle abusing children for 30 years – 30 years! – and how clergy and leaders covered up abuse and abandoned survivors. Brian Houston was the leader of Hillsong Church as it became the biggest Pentecostal church. Its rise and rise seemed unstoppable until dirty secrets started to come out as described in detail by David Hardaker in Mine is the Kingdom. Anne and David talk to Michael Duffy about the stories they uncovered.